Brilliant Steve, really enjoyed that. That picture of the sign at Maing, with the horse chariot and sun, is amazing. Phantasmagoria. I like the derive like method of finding the Church and running in ever-increasing circles from it. Looking forward to reading what happens in Cassells!
Aloha - Hoo mai hoo aku ka mana, mana papalua e - I'm glad to share some of the many meanings.
I was on that excellent call with Heidi, and have sent you an email I hope you will find interesting.
I was following my own thing on recent findings on the history of horses, and was delighted that my next piece of input was Timothy Snyder mentioning the evolution of the horse with the Scythians. Turns out I am an Amazon (ha!)..., something in my blood must tie back...
I'm reading a history of early colonization in the US, This Land Is Their Land. A remark is made about the mound builders' organization -- that a hierarchy and even enslavement was necessary to force people to labor like that. Higher status skeletons were better nourished, etc. I look forward to your sharing more that you may dig up
I am not sure about Mound Builders' language, but the Algonquian tribe that used M-N Manitouv (and may have come from early Siberians).did not build much. There was enough abundant food in the coastal area that their society was freer as groups could leave displeasing hierarchies, choose new leaders, form new villages etc. Thiugh mounds might be related, I'd say they might not be required as a sign of cultural.relationship! The Algonquian groups raided and enslaved mostly women and children, not permanent social.strata based on labor....
Even more from Quora: If — and I think the likelihood is very strong — this putative PIE-PAlg relationship is eventually accepted by the scholarly community, the implication of the apparent closeness of the relationship between the two phyla (which to me seems comparable to the relationship between Romanian and French or Portuguese) is that they would have separated from each other, probably somewhere around central Asia or southern Siberia, at a period not enormously earlier in terms of millennia before PIE is hypothesised to have been spoken somewhere around 4500 BCE. The Algonquian migration from the Columbia Plateau toward the Great Lakes is dated approximately to some 2500–3000 years before present, so it is plausible that pre-proto-Algonquian (and thus probably proto-Algic) was spoken in the Pacific Northwest around the same time as PIE was present in the Pontic Steppe before its breakup and expansion to the south, west, and southeast.
Another lead which I plan to follow up is the phenomenon of mound building by indigenous American cultures after 150 CE in the Ohio River Valley’s Hopewell Culture. The Great Post Circle and the Moorhead circle resemble some pre-Indo-European monuments like Stonehenge (and the Dnipro Cromlech https://www.powerofmana.net/p/stone-palisade-walled-circle-documented ).
Lynne Kelly’s brilliant “The Memory Code” (and her underlying PhD that stimulated The Memory Book) looks briefly at these Mounds and stone circles.
I wonder what you'd unearth if you investigated the Algonquian Indigenous American 'manitou' for divine energy that infuses all. Struck by "manitou" thanks to you while reading a history of the first contact period on the northeast coast of North America where I live. In about the1630s an English Pilgrim colonist cites local Wampanoags' use of "Manitou" "God". Wampanoag is an Algonquian language The 1630s is relatively early in the settling/colonializing even though there was contact in the region since at least the 1500s, it was rather glancing with traders and enslavers from Europe not learning language but rather cruising up and down the northeast coast trading and enslaving. I doubt the M-N sacred sound came from Europe during this time, but rather must have come from Siberia.
Book is "This Land is Their Land" by David Silverman. I've noticed that US Great Plains and Western Indians used other than M-N sounds--"Wakan."
So investigating via internet search, how and when did M-N cross from Siberia? On your quite comprehensive map I didn't see time markings nor tendrils toward/into Siberia. Maybe this could add some filaments? North American continent likely became inhabited 19-26K years ago but there were several waves back and forth.
Christopher Ray Miller on Quora sayss this -- The upshot is Americans ancestors come ultimately from South Central Siberia but who they are genetically arose from mixing and mutations that occurred in Beringia.They are not particularly close to modern Siberians or modern East Asians. Modern eastern Siberians replaced the people related to Native Americans about 10,000 years ago. Ancient genetics seems to show that Native American people are a mix of mainly two groups who were in Siberia before the Last Glacial Maximum. They are known as the Ancient North Eurasian (an example was in "Mal'ta boy") and are distantly related to Mesolithic European Hunter Gatherers; and a branch of the East Eurasians. Native Americans trace 42% of their ancestry to ANE and 58% to a common ancestor Eastern Siberians and East Asians. Then they had more changes that came living in Beringia and as they spread across the Americas 15,000 to 20,000 years ago.
then Geoffrey Sea on Quora says
The upshot is Americans ancestors come ultimately from South Central Siberia but who they are genetically arose from mixing and mutations that occurred in Beringia.They are not particularly close to modern Siberians or modern East Asians. Modern eastern Siberians replaced the people related to Native Americans about 10,000 years ago. Ancient genetics seems to show that Native American people are a mix of mainly two groups who were in Siberia before the Last Glacial Maximum. They are known as the Ancient North Eurasian (an example was in "Mal'ta boy") and are distantly related to Mesolithic European Hunter Gatherers; and a branch of the East Eurasians. Native Americans trace 42% of their ancestry to ANE and 58% to a common ancestor Eastern Siberians and East Asians. Then they had more changes that came living in Beringia and as they spread across the Americas 15,000 to 20,000 years ago.
🤩 . Thank you. ‘Manitou’ is a great data point for me. Leave that with me. I would love it to be evidence either of the common source from which the M-N- sound emanated or of contact between Indo-Europeans (perhaps as you mention via Bering Straits). I hope you will get a chance to read https://www.powerofmana.net/p/m-n-sound-as-linguists-holy-grail
so beautiful and charming. Love the title "Looking for Manuland"
Thank you so much Mary Ann. I’m so happy to know that you’re reading along. 😃🙏🏾
Brilliant Steve, really enjoyed that. That picture of the sign at Maing, with the horse chariot and sun, is amazing. Phantasmagoria. I like the derive like method of finding the Church and running in ever-increasing circles from it. Looking forward to reading what happens in Cassells!
Thank you @GopalD Great to hear from you 🫡
Aloha - Hoo mai hoo aku ka mana, mana papalua e - I'm glad to share some of the many meanings.
I was on that excellent call with Heidi, and have sent you an email I hope you will find interesting.
I was following my own thing on recent findings on the history of horses, and was delighted that my next piece of input was Timothy Snyder mentioning the evolution of the horse with the Scythians. Turns out I am an Amazon (ha!)..., something in my blood must tie back...
I'm reading a history of early colonization in the US, This Land Is Their Land. A remark is made about the mound builders' organization -- that a hierarchy and even enslavement was necessary to force people to labor like that. Higher status skeletons were better nourished, etc. I look forward to your sharing more that you may dig up
I am not sure about Mound Builders' language, but the Algonquian tribe that used M-N Manitouv (and may have come from early Siberians).did not build much. There was enough abundant food in the coastal area that their society was freer as groups could leave displeasing hierarchies, choose new leaders, form new villages etc. Thiugh mounds might be related, I'd say they might not be required as a sign of cultural.relationship! The Algonquian groups raided and enslaved mostly women and children, not permanent social.strata based on labor....
Interesting. Thank you 🙏🏾
Even more from Quora: If — and I think the likelihood is very strong — this putative PIE-PAlg relationship is eventually accepted by the scholarly community, the implication of the apparent closeness of the relationship between the two phyla (which to me seems comparable to the relationship between Romanian and French or Portuguese) is that they would have separated from each other, probably somewhere around central Asia or southern Siberia, at a period not enormously earlier in terms of millennia before PIE is hypothesised to have been spoken somewhere around 4500 BCE. The Algonquian migration from the Columbia Plateau toward the Great Lakes is dated approximately to some 2500–3000 years before present, so it is plausible that pre-proto-Algonquian (and thus probably proto-Algic) was spoken in the Pacific Northwest around the same time as PIE was present in the Pontic Steppe before its breakup and expansion to the south, west, and southeast.
https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-Algonquian-tribes-first-arrive-in-North-America
Another lead which I plan to follow up is the phenomenon of mound building by indigenous American cultures after 150 CE in the Ohio River Valley’s Hopewell Culture. The Great Post Circle and the Moorhead circle resemble some pre-Indo-European monuments like Stonehenge (and the Dnipro Cromlech https://www.powerofmana.net/p/stone-palisade-walled-circle-documented ).
Lynne Kelly’s brilliant “The Memory Code” (and her underlying PhD that stimulated The Memory Book) looks briefly at these Mounds and stone circles.
I wonder what you'd unearth if you investigated the Algonquian Indigenous American 'manitou' for divine energy that infuses all. Struck by "manitou" thanks to you while reading a history of the first contact period on the northeast coast of North America where I live. In about the1630s an English Pilgrim colonist cites local Wampanoags' use of "Manitou" "God". Wampanoag is an Algonquian language The 1630s is relatively early in the settling/colonializing even though there was contact in the region since at least the 1500s, it was rather glancing with traders and enslavers from Europe not learning language but rather cruising up and down the northeast coast trading and enslaving. I doubt the M-N sacred sound came from Europe during this time, but rather must have come from Siberia.
Book is "This Land is Their Land" by David Silverman. I've noticed that US Great Plains and Western Indians used other than M-N sounds--"Wakan."
So investigating via internet search, how and when did M-N cross from Siberia? On your quite comprehensive map I didn't see time markings nor tendrils toward/into Siberia. Maybe this could add some filaments? North American continent likely became inhabited 19-26K years ago but there were several waves back and forth.
Christopher Ray Miller on Quora sayss this -- The upshot is Americans ancestors come ultimately from South Central Siberia but who they are genetically arose from mixing and mutations that occurred in Beringia.They are not particularly close to modern Siberians or modern East Asians. Modern eastern Siberians replaced the people related to Native Americans about 10,000 years ago. Ancient genetics seems to show that Native American people are a mix of mainly two groups who were in Siberia before the Last Glacial Maximum. They are known as the Ancient North Eurasian (an example was in "Mal'ta boy") and are distantly related to Mesolithic European Hunter Gatherers; and a branch of the East Eurasians. Native Americans trace 42% of their ancestry to ANE and 58% to a common ancestor Eastern Siberians and East Asians. Then they had more changes that came living in Beringia and as they spread across the Americas 15,000 to 20,000 years ago.
then Geoffrey Sea on Quora says
The upshot is Americans ancestors come ultimately from South Central Siberia but who they are genetically arose from mixing and mutations that occurred in Beringia.They are not particularly close to modern Siberians or modern East Asians. Modern eastern Siberians replaced the people related to Native Americans about 10,000 years ago. Ancient genetics seems to show that Native American people are a mix of mainly two groups who were in Siberia before the Last Glacial Maximum. They are known as the Ancient North Eurasian (an example was in "Mal'ta boy") and are distantly related to Mesolithic European Hunter Gatherers; and a branch of the East Eurasians. Native Americans trace 42% of their ancestry to ANE and 58% to a common ancestor Eastern Siberians and East Asians. Then they had more changes that came living in Beringia and as they spread across the Americas 15,000 to 20,000 years ago.
🤩 . Thank you. ‘Manitou’ is a great data point for me. Leave that with me. I would love it to be evidence either of the common source from which the M-N- sound emanated or of contact between Indo-Europeans (perhaps as you mention via Bering Straits). I hope you will get a chance to read https://www.powerofmana.net/p/m-n-sound-as-linguists-holy-grail
Yes! This very rich material is worth perusing again; it's where I first met m-n.